Numbers as Sound Signs
 
 
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Can sound signs (letters) be used for numbers?

Until Hindu-Arabic logograms were adopted circa 1000 ce, letters were routinely used by the Phoenicians, Greeks, and others to express numerical concepts. One reason for a conventional alphabetical order was to support this use. 

Using Numbers as sound signs to augment ASCII letters
 
ASCII New Association Old Associations  Continuity in shape and reference

2
3

5




10
t, L
zh z
ng, R (her)
dh (the)
sh, --
ei, oh
th (thin)
ei
ai (fr9=fry)
--
a-alef bird, ox 1-harpoon
b- bet house,2  tally marks
g-3 tally-marks [=]gG
d-delta, daleth, dag-fish
f-digamma, wa, fej-viper 
e- 6 epsilon, he
z- 7-zeta 
h- 8 - eta, ch as in loch 
th theta - tether
iota, yota
    The first three numbers are iconic tally marks. They are the same as Roman numerals except for being rotated and cursive. First used by Egyptians.
    The two numbers that CCS uses as sound signs are the "look alikes" 2=Zh and 5=Sh. Zh is rare [me5r=measure]. Sh is commonly written as [tio] in TO: [mo'shn = motion = mo'5n]. 
"5i.p 5 sli'pi 5i'p"[ship 5 sleepy sheep]
    The 3 can be viewed as a rotated cursive n and used to mark the /ng/ phoneme found in *bank [ba3g]. This works in handwriting by is visually disruptive in print.The 3 is also related to the ancient yogh symbol which was used by Jones for the vowel in [her].







>
shwa. æ
æ
u
th, dh
turned c, th
c & k
g, aw
gamma
at symbol 
ampersand 
circumflex, carat 
bracket 
bracket 
hash mark, number 
less than 
greater than 
    The Eg. open 4 shape was used for "ba" a heron. The closed 4 for was used for hand. The Semites used the 4 for fish (dag) and later renamed it daleth (door). The daleth (delta) with a stem looked like a 4. (see Semitic letter chart)
    The Egyptian used the turned h or Y shape for the horned viper looked something like a hook (waw) to the Semites. The viper also looked like an F which the Greeks called digamma. It was used exclusively for the number 5 when the sound was shifted to phi.

Egyptian and Semitic shapes

According to paleographer, Benjamin Sass, the original Semitic letter shapes were borrowed from the Egyptians during the middle Egyptian period (1800-1600 bc). The pictographic and acrophonic notions also played a role in the early alphabet development. 

The objections to using numeric symbols for sound signs

(Critic) "We already confuse 1 and l , 0 and o as well as B and 8. We don't need to add to the confusion by adding a 2 -zh and 5-sh ambiguity. "

(SB) Logically, there can be no confusion since zh and sh are never used without a vowel. 
Examples: 2nd (second) vs. me2r (measure)    5th vs. 5ip (ship)
The F and S are related historically with the long S taking the F shape in 16th century printing. The F in phonecian and greek referred to the number 5.

(Critic) In principle, an orthography should not use digraphs for pure sounds or silent letters as markers.  

When one uses the ASCII character set there are not many options.  This is why Chekt Spelling notation uses numbers (logograms) as sound signs.

The only rationale for keeping the h as a marker is to retain a visual connection to TO. Before 1100, the c was used in this role (scip=ship) where c=ch.  I don't believe that new codes should be non-romic unless there is an over-riding reason. In this case there is. Another option in some typefaces is a small v diacritic above the s and z.

In rapid ryting form the 5 becomes a lazy-h and the 2 a flipped lazy h. As shown on the left, these approximate shapes can be found in Shavian.  In Shavian the symbols refer to tsh and dzh.
 

Can numbers be used as sound signs?

Yes, but they are language specific. "4 Sale" only makes sense in English where four has the same sound as for. In Spanish the sign would be read [kwahtro-sahleh]. 

The four shape [ 4] may be related to the 4th letter in the ancient "alef-bet." It may be related to the daleth (delta).  Until around 800 ad, the letters were used in Greece and the Middle East as numbers so there was a strong association between delta and the concept of four.  Early forms of delta (daleth) had a stem and resembled the 4 shape.

Ancient alphabet design principles

The Semitic orthographers borrowed Egyptian ideas on alphabet design. According to the ancients, the letter shape should resemble a familiar object and the letter sound should be the initial sound in the name of the familiar object. (acrophonic-pictographic) Some of these associations can be used today: B=building, D=door, H=eight

more    phonician letters

Number forms/names vs. letter forms/names

Egyptian number forms and number names were not directly related to letter forms and letter names. Semitic number forms were.  The Semites were into simplification.  The Egyptians seemed content with codes that were more difficult than necessary.  

In one of his short essays, Mark Twain drew a parallel between the Egyptian reluctance to simplify and the resistance that English speakers have against changing their overly complex orthography.

Ancient shapes and significances
 
No.
Number
Semitic  Form - see next chart Semitic Letter Name Semitic Ref. Egyptian 
Letter 
Name
Eg. Letter Reference English
Acro-
phonic
Eg. Number Name Eg. Number Reference
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
20
50
100
1000
k
g
< G
D
pfq
YY
zZ
Hh
Q
i
k
l
m
n
X
aleph
bet, beyth
gimel
daleth,dag
he-epsilon
waw-digamma
zayin
chethheta
teth
yod, yodh
kaaph
lamedh
mem
nun
samekh
'ayin
pe, pey
sadhe
qof, kawph
resh
sin
shin
taw
ox
house
camel
door
hand
hook
spear
barrier
.
yarn?
hand
palm
rod,cane

water
snake, fish
support
.
eye
mouth
?
monkey
face
tooth
tooth
mark
 

alef
..b..
c.. 
d.. 
wah..

ts, djed
h.. 
teth 
 
 

 

bird
leg
basket
hand
chick
-i, e
-snake
twisted-wick
thether
-
-
-
-
-
avian
boot
cup
digits
w
pad
wa 
sen 
vethet 
wu 
tuan 
sas 
setex 
xeshfun 
best 
met 
tuat 

sa 
cha chei
harpoon
-
-
-

Was Egyptian Culture Static

While we think of Egyptian writing and speech as unchanging over their 4000 year history. Pictorial Hieroglyphics were static but shorthand versions (hieratic and demotic)  were developed and these changed over time. The language changed so much that some of the original letter names were lost. In other words, the popular names for the pharoahs hen, flowering reed, and arm changed obscuring the mnemonic. 

Since pictorial hieroglyphics never changed after their introduction around 3200 b.c., we can see the reference but in some cases we have no clue as to the name or pronunciation beyond the sound of the initial letter. 

Sometimes the reference is a little obscure.  Many of the early interpretations have been discredited and one sometimes wonders how solid some of the current interpretations really are.  Some scholars question whether or not hieroglyphics were consistently acrophonic. Perhaps it was the dominant sound which  followed a very weak initial vowel. 
 

Semitic Sound Signs Egyptian Uniliteral Sound Signs Greek TO
traditional

source: hieratic symbos added to a symbol chart found at the URL
Chart
alpha

yod-iota

ayin-
omega
waw-upsilonbeta-beyt
pa-pe-pi
f-waw-phi

mr-mem-mu
nem-nun-nu

ro-re-rho

h-he-heta

 

A='alef while the initial sound is a glottal stop the letter is often associated with ah or uh

i=any short vowel

a=a: 

 

References

Go to Amazon.com and search on number

Danzig, T. Number
Meninger, 

 

LINKS

Sitemap-L Link A local index of all spelling related pages

Checkt Spelling

Spelling Links at www.delphi.com/spelreform

Ancient Semitic Letters Hieroglyphics

Egyptian Hierglyphics
 


Comments
Additional comments are welcomed
   - mail to sbett@mailcity.com or connect to http://www.delphi.com/spelreform

(Madjukar) RE: Using numbers as sound signs. This alphanumeric confusion needs some thinking.
Numerals 0(zero)1(one)2(two)5(five) and letters o(open) l(lamp) z(zoo) s(sit) resemble, and one is misread for the other.

(Steve) That is the point, why not take advantage of any similarities and make 2 zh and 5 sh. The only alpha numeric ambiguity I am concerned about is the zero letter O and the captial B and 8.

This is usually disconcerting when you are trying to copy long serial numbers.

(MG) I have seen your scheme, and am not so comfortable with lots of apostrophe marks appearing in the text. No doubt French etc use diacritic marks, and in principle nothing wrong in apostrophe marks, but I am stating my general impression.

(SB) The shwapostrope always refers to the same thing, a central vowel.
I am open to alternative marker. Some people like oo and uu but how do you keep the reference straight.
oo iz illogical for anything other than a long o <o:>. The marker has to be unobtrusive and neutral as far as a sound value. That is what makes the schwapostrophe idea. X is also pretty good. I use if for [dh - eth].

(MG) So I suggest an informal new language (like Pitman shorthand, nobody objects to it) Chemists standardize symbols. Thus Ca=calcium,C=carbon, no interchange.Where is the agency to standardize reformed spellings ?

(SB) The Globish proposal is not unlike the Anjel proposal. Its a good idea but you still have to find the community of users.
There is no agency to standardize reformed spellings. What we do have are pronunciation dictionaries which are in agreement about 95% of the time. All we are trying to do is come up with an ascii notation that can substitute for the turned e, c, and v which require a special font. We are also trying to substitute for ou [o'] and perhaps ai [y] since these can be confusing for an audience brought up on TO. e.g., oat=out.